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On a road trip to Arizona this past summer, three friends and I packed ourselves into @800cherries Ford Focus and spent three days in the desert. After that trip I spent a lot of time thinking about the drive itself, the difference between the drive there and the drive back. Leaving someplace – anything-possible, spritely and chattery – versus returning – sunburnt, exhausted, silent but closer together, changed.

Just a few weeks ago, I spent two days packed in my aunt’s tiny Fiat, driving around Italy with my mom in the passenger seat, me and the dogs and suitcases behind them. My mother and aunt hadn’t seen each other for fourteen years. For those two days, I listened intently as they caught up, shared stories of heartbreak, divorce, joy and travel, kids and aging, love and womanhood. I felt like I was watching two of my future self from the back seat. Many of my takeaways from that trip, the heartwarming and honest bits, were found not in the cities themselves but in the long stretches between them.

Protagonist issue #3 explores the road - the distances we travel, who we travel them with, and why we are going where we’re going.

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The following is an interview with Alyssa Grace (@fortuneobject on instagram and River) and @fallwinter2002girl.

This conversation took place on Saturday, October 11th at 1pm in Los Angeles and 3pm in San Antonio, Texas. The 96-minute recording has been edited for clarity and readability.

OPENING

AG: Yeah. Yeah. You can ask me [motions, whatever]. I trust you.

FW: First, just where are you based out of?

AG: I'm based out of San Antonio, Texas. Countdown city.

FW: Countdown city. Okay. What does that mean?

AG: City 210. That's our area code. 

FW: Two-ten.

AG: Yeah, the two-ten, countdown city. That's a joke.

FW: What's a joke?

AG: [laughing]

FW: Do you recall the first instance of being drawn to photography? Do you have a mentor? How did your process start?

AG: Definitely when I was younger, I was like “I’m an artist,” I want to paint and stuff. And then I think when I first started taking pictures, I guess for– I'd say I do it for fun anyway, but when I first started taking pictures, I was really into stop motion and I saw Lego stop motion videos, I saw the end of that one iCarly episode where he's like making the stop motion with the burrito and alien or something and the hamster. 

FW: Okay. I don't know it.

AG: I just was so intrigued and I remember telling my mom I want to make stuff. Sometimes when I was bored I'd go up to her and I'd be like “I want to make something.” But I didn't know what that meant and I didn't know how to get my thought to reality. Like if I wanted to build something or make a video, I just didn't know how to do that. And so I didn't really understand stop motion… I remember looking up videos and I saw that they would photoshop the pictures so no hands were in it, but I didn't understand what that was. I had this– I can't remember the name of it. It's a camera. It was like a black rectangle and had a red circle. [makes a shape with hands] I'm sure you could look it up. And I remember it was mainly for video. It was older and I remember I had my grandma try and help me. But yeah, I would, I would do that. I tried to make stop motion videos. And then going on vacation when I was a teenager I was like, I don't want to be here so I'm just going to take pictures and edit them– 

FW: Like family vacation? 

AG: Yeah. So then whenever we got back to our hotel I would just go in the corner and look through all my pictures and be off in the corner. I just feel like I've always kind of taken pictures just cause I liked it. And my grandma, she got me my first real camera for Christmas one year. And um, it's just kind of always been there, I think, because they're like, "Oh, you're into art and whatever. Here's like, a camera." 

FW: And just go make something. That's cool that you just had the innate thing to just– you don't even know what the medium is yet or what the material is. You're just like “I need to make something with my hands.”

AG: I was never– I didn't choose to be like a photographer and I wouldn't even– like yeah, I'm a photographer, but I also wouldn't say I'm just, you know? I think it's just my favorite outlet because it's so easy. I see so many things all the time that I really like and stick out to me and I feel like people see them too but nobody pauses long enough to really– maybe you see something you're like “Oh that's sick.” But I feel like, no, let's look at it and let's acknowledge it really, not just kind of be like, "Oh, that's cool."

FW: Yeah. Okay. So, I think this is a good segue into my first question, which is– in this conversation that me, Subin, and Max had, Subin said that they're a poet, their raw material is words. I do fashion design, my raw material would be fabric and patterns. And then they said for a photographer, their raw material would be the world, like the real world around them. Versus I think more logistically and tactile. And I feel like your raw materials would be like the actual equipment that you're using. What are your thoughts on this? Or do you not even think in terms of subject/material?

AG: Yeah. I just think in terms of– like what I was saying, if I see something I like, I acknowledge it. “I like this thing” and I feel like the eye to camera thing became a practice because, like I said, I feel like a lot of people, every day, go out into the world and you see something you like and you're like, "Oh, I like this person's shoes." Or, "Oh, today I saw this crazy thing” like someone walking by and they're wearing this crazy hat. And you tell your friend, but that's it. I feel like, "Okay, well, I'm just going to take pictures of every single thing that I find interesting, even if it's really small and I don't even show anyone.” Like, it's just for me, you know?

FW: Yeah, do you keep a lot of pictures just for yourself to look back and not post them?

AG: [laughing] Yeah, there's a lot of pictures. There's a lot of pictures I take just because that's the practice, the root of everything for me is for myself and cause I like it and then you know, sometimes I want to show my friends or just put it out there just so other people can connect with it however they want to. But also to maybe have people start thinking in this way… maybe they start trying to notice things that stick out to them and how it makes them feel. Um, so I mean that's not really answering your question, but I think–

9:36

FW: No, but I like that because I think… I mean I have had that, with looking at your images, then I go out and see something that reminded me of it and I'm like, "Oh sh*t, I should take a picture of this." I feel like that's the whole thing of it, or with any medium where you see it and then it inspires you to kind of do your own version of it.

AG: Exactly. And that's like with anything. I believe I'm almost no different than a chef or a dancer. Like they have their own respective thing. I don't know, maybe hearing a song can remind me of this one thing in my childhood, and then someone else sees one of my photos and it gives them that same kind of feeling. Even though they're all different, the thing in common is it's striking an emotion or a memory. You know, something– it moves you. And I think that's what I'm trying to say. Like, of course, I can't cook at the same level, or perform. But these things move people and it takes something also for the person, you know, doing that thing, to take someone there and take themselves there. Yeah, I think it's really raw seeing people like that. I feel like most people see people so intimately in friendships or relationships or family, but I think through art it can be an even faster type of… whether you know someone…

11:12

FW: Yeah, it can be just as intimate because you're hitting on something that everyone experiences or you're hitting on something that’s familiar.

AG: [nods] With strangers like that. I mean and that's the crazy part… You don't even know these people sometimes and it just touches you right in your soul. So what different is that than seeing someone or something on the street, you know? I'm thinking of my materials, I agree with it being the world. But I think my eyes – in a cliche way – are my materials. And my phone is just my instrument. 

FW: Yeah. I like what you said, eye to camera. I think that's a good way of putting it.

AG: Cause it's like instinct. When people ask me, "How do I be a photographer?" I'm like, "I cannot tell you that." Like I can't tell you. But the only thing I can tell you is to take a picture of every single thing that you like. If you see something that you like, take a picture of it and bring your camera with you as many places as you can. If I’m trying to get the angle I go like this sometimes [brings iPhone camera up to eye level].

FW: Mhm. You're making the camera you kind of. So, do you differentiate between iPhone photography, film photography? I'm curious about iPhone photography as a topic because I feel like a lot of people kind of discount it as a real or true medium. 

14:00

AG: Yeah, I feel like if you asked me probably like a year or maybe like even a couple months ago, I would be more so in that same kind of boat. But I think that it is a tool like any other, like any other type of thing. There's acoustic guitars, electric guitars, you use them for different types of sounds and one isn't any less than the other. That just today I was telling my friend– cause he was telling me, "I saw this lady and I wanted to take a picture of her, but my lens wasn't right, but I still took the picture." And I think that goes back to the main thing of what taking a picture is for me, or maybe for other people, is that flash moment. And I was like, “well, yeah, I feel like that's why I just pull my phone out sometimes cause it's like the quickest thing.” And sometimes that's all you have. And I think that there's nothing wrong with that. I don't think there's anything lesser or greater than a phone or whatever. Like I agree, there is better quality in like digital cameras or like a really nice film camera.

FW: Yeah. But it's not necessarily about that. It's about what you're seeing. Or it makes me think of how now, people kind of find the earlier iPhone cameras to be nostalgic and people will seek out those cameras and buy dead phones or whatever just for the camera. And so I'm kind of like, okay, is that going to happen in a couple of years? I have an iPhone 12, that’s already what, four or five years old. Is this look gonna be…? 

AG: Yeah. No, that's happening now. I feel like that’s happening. I've seen a lot of people do that, like purposely buy old phones. But I think that's like with anything cause, I mean I use VHS, I use film. Film has always been a thing.

FW: Yeah. What video mediums do you use?

AG: I use just V8, Hi-8 tapes.

AG: This is fun because… [gets up, leaves frame] I'll show you. I cleaned everything. I have this one. [holds up second camera] This is the one I mainly use. Like it's just a Sony Handy Cam Hi-8. Mostly everything I shoot is Hi-8 and then– okay put this on the record. I am against tapeless cameras. I don't know why I'm a stickler, but… I feel superstitious of playing back my tape as I record it, right after I record it cause I'm scared that I'll forget and then I'll record over something, cause the first time I did make a video that happened. And so now when I export it to my laptop and screen record it, that is when I watch it back.

FW: That's when you're seeing it all for the first time.

AG: Yeah. I feel like it's a part of my process. I'm just funny, but I feel like if you're going to get a VHS camera, get it to learn it in the process, not just stick an SD card up there.

FW: Like for the look of it.

AG: And yeah, it's efficient. It's cool. And there's nothing wrong with the look. I like the look. Everyone likes it. But like I said, that's just my opinion. And I have this whole stack here like and this isn't even all of them, but…

19:12

AG: I think that this is so important to me. All of them. I write with the yellow marker on every single one of them. Like literally every single one of them. All of them. I have more somewhere. 

FW: Sweet.

AG: But you know what I mean? Like if I died and someone were to go back…

FW: All of your record is there. 

AG: And it's not on a laptop. I think the whole like physical media thing– like some people maybe think it's a trend but I think, you know, if phones and cameras and the internet stopped working then what? But I think if anything as an artist or someone who enjoys these things, I urge people to do more things that are tangible and not just on the screen, but like writing letters, or polaroids. 

COLLECTING STORIES

29:44

FW: I want to talk about your back of trucks and cars channel. What sparked this? When did you first start noticing these? Why do you take them? 

AG: So, I think I always kind of took them, like a lot of these themes that I have I started unknowingly, several– three, four, five years ago. Like the backup camera one I have one from like 2020, 2021 and I would just kind of take them and then there was a point where it turned into, if it happens it happens.

FW: You're not seeking it out. You're just kind of liking it when you see it.

AG: Yeah. So like the back of the truck, back of the car. I would say about two years ago, or like a year and a half ago, I was going to Austin and Houston a lot. And so you go down the main highways like I35, I think at least, to get to Austin. And I've been going to Austin a lot this past… recently. And there's always those trucks. I was just driving all the way to Austin and back to Houston and back. And a lot of them had things and sometimes I'd be like, "Oh, that's funny." Or I would take a picture, I wouldn't, but then I was like, “Oh, there's so many of them. I'm just going to take pictures of my favorite ones.” And then it just kind of became this thing. And then I think about a year ago I was like, “Why don't I post these?” Because I have folders of stuff. 

FW: You have a collection of them. 

AG: Like the letters, I've been collecting letters for a couple years now… or there are a few that have been gifts which is funny. Sometimes people – with the letters in particular – will gift me a letter they found or a letter that someone, you know, gave them and they were like, “I should keep this.” And so some of my letters have stories… I feel like I'm a little shy. I'm a little reserved. And I think if I spoke more – which is why I'm kind of okay with doing this – then maybe people would connect with things even more and realize the true beauty. And I don't think humility is the word, but I think humility as in being vulnerable.

FW: Yeah. Giving context to what you're creating. 

AG: Yeah. It's definitely scary…

FW: It was easier for me to start doing it once I created an account that's not my name. Something about having my name completely removed and separate made it feel like a true outlet versus like– I have to show up with my suit and tie and present my work as some like [grand motion] Marina Clark, some being, versus I can kind of just…

AG: Yeah, exactly. And I think I, I kind of agree with you on that because I feel like you'd be like, "Oh, Alyssa Grace." [grand motion] And I'm like, okay, well, I'm also just me. I don't have to be whoever you think I am… and I could go on about that, having this stamp or this literal brand when we're all just people.

33:36

FW: What was the inspo behind “fortune object?” 

AG: I was trying to think of names that resonated, cause sometimes they're just jokes, like @jesuschristssuperstars. It's a play on the musical, and then it's if Jesus Christ had Adidas Superstars so that's why I put Jesus Christ’s superstars, like his superstars, possessive. I grew up Catholic, so I think fortune-object, like blessed figure, prized figure… I almost want to say lucky. I was thinking, fluke, like that. Luck, something like that. I think if you're blessed you're not lucky – those are separate but something like that. Trying to show a being of luck, like a statue of Mary would be. I thought about making a series of fortune objects. Like a statue of Mary, a rabbit’s foot, or– you know what I mean? That's what I think fortune object is. Something lucky. I'm a blessed person… [motions to screen] you're a fortune object, like you're special, you're this thing that– you know, people have like lucky underwear that they live or die by… but every person is a fortune object. 

FW: That's awesome. This is so interesting because the name of the magazine is protagonist and I feel like that's similar… I'm curious, with protagonist– what's the first thing that comes to mind?

AG: Mhm. Protagonist, I think immediate thought– everyone ever. I wouldn't say, “Oh me I'm the protagonist of my own life because it's my life and my perspective and you're the protagonist of your own life.” I think, no I think everyone is not “the” protagonist but everyone is Protagonist. You know what I mean?

FW: Yes, I do. I do. In the way that everyone is this blessed figure. 

AG: Everyone is prized figure. Everyone is fortune object. Everyone is protagonist. Everyone is holy. Everyone is worth worship. Everyone is, and maybe some people are– not to get deep but like there's “bad people” there's this and that but those are all protagonists. Every story is not about great people only… I would still document– bad things are still documented. Bad things need to be documented for the sake of good. I think documentation is more so important now than it ever has been because of things being censored and this and that, and us being able to look back and I've seen people print out news articles and I think that's so important because again everything is on the phone. How are we going to look back and be able to tell people “That's not true” when we have nothing or whatever we have is deleted or taken from us, the good and the bad? I think it's all just as important. But I also think protagonist can be whatever. Like it can be a funny thing. I took a picture of this person wearing a crown at the grocery store the other day, and it's not cause I'm like, "Oh, maybe it's their birthday." I was like, this is sick and I think they're cool because they're wearing this and we shouldn't equate it to “It's their birthday.” Like, this person's wearing a crown. That's it, you know?

ON CLOTHING

41:36

FW: I read in this past week, in preparation for this conversation I was reading bits and pieces of this [steps away to grab book] Rock Troubadours which is these interviews and it's very casual style conversations with all these musicians. And there's never really like a direct question. They're just talking about process and it just goes rabbit hole, rabbit hole, rabbit hole. I pulled some of these questions from here.

AG: That's sick. I think rabbit hole rabbit hole rabbit hole… see that would be sick on a shirt.

FW: Yeah. Real quick, give us an outfit rundown. What are you wearing today? And then I want to ask you about your relationship with fashion because I know when we first got wind of each other on the internet you were working at a vintage store and we talked about fashion a lot, that was like our main point of–

AG: Oh yeah, that was. Okay. Today I'm wearing this Doughboy Supreme shirt. I think Supreme… I used to really like it then I thought it was corny but now I really like it because I learned a little bit more about it. But my brother got me this shirt for Christmas whenever this came out like 3 years ago and he was just trying to be cool I guess. And a lot of people still compliment it which, I don't know why cause I'm like– is the [Pilsbury] Doughboy really cool or something? Do people just like the design? I don't know, but I get a lot of compliments on it for some reason. And whenever I do, I tell him because I just want to make him happy. Like I want him to know that he picked a good shirt and that I still wear it to this day.

FW: That he did good.

AG: Yeah. Uh, my belt that I always wear, of course my 3sixteens. And then of course just my boots that I always wear that I got re-soled.

FW: Nice. Shout out. 

AG: I had to. Yeah. Vibram. I mean I wear the same thing. I think I wore this every time we've ever met. 

FW: Yeah, I think so. 

AG: So, go figure.

FW: I also like to wear the same thing every day. I've been wearing the same jeans for like three days and I just rotate out with my other pair. I feel like for me fashion is very utilitarian and I'm just wearing clothes because I literally have to and so I want it to just serve function. I feel like function coming before form is important to me; if I am able to do what I need to do in the clothes then I will look good, versus trying to look good and retrofit it.

AG: Yeah. I feel like I can wear this anywhere. There are people who have totally different relationships to fashion and clothes and of course like I fully respect that – cause some people are like “I need to get ready to go out or I need to get ready to go here…” but I just try to dress for all of the above. And if I am going to go somewhere in particular I will dress accordingly but I think the main thing is that it's probably going to be all black, you know what I mean? Or proportions and fabric are really a thing for me. I feel like even before I started working at this vintage store… I've kind of had an interest. I have this friend Dustin who I get a lot of my clothes from and he's the same way. His setup is based on colors and textures… I have some of my favorite pieces from him. He really understands the fit of things and he looks out for my sizes and my colors and my textures. And I have this one jacket in particular. It’s a Ranger tiger camo jacket and it has these pockets that fit everything perfectly. My cameras, my Polaroids, everything fits perfectly. And I'm really into collared things cause I feel like collared shirts and stuff are “professional”, you know? And I have this thing about wanting to be respected cause I want to respect other people and see them as, you know– a mutual thing of respect. And I think when you look good and you feel good about yourself then you're kind of unstoppable.

FW: Definitely. Yeah, I totally agree. That's how I feel about the function thing. I work now on my feet. I'm sewing and patterning all day… I like the idea of lab clothes. And not it being scrubs necessarily or anything like that, but that my lab clothes are like plain black jeans, plain black t-shirt, or whatever is not going to physically get in the way. I can't be stylized in the way that there's stuff dangling because it'll get caught in a machine… I want to feel protected. I have to cover my feet because if something drops or my foot gets stuck in a pedal, I want to be safe. If I feel good in what I'm wearing, then I'm unstoppable and then I work faster and I can hit flow state easier. 

50:54

AG: Yeah. I'm really into true vintage, but also I'm really into Supreme or I like skate brands.

FW: Right, a contemporary brand that serves the same purpose, or is drawing from those. and contemporary brands are drawing from– everyone is just comping vintage of course.

AG: It's too far now.

FW: Yeah. I'm no longer a corporate girl, but when I was, we literally would just pull from our vintage archive and just knock our own stuff off from, like, the 80s and just kind of saran wrap it and send it out. 

AG: Yeah. I went to [contemporary clothing store] for the first time and I could tell every single type of thing they were pulling from and I was just dumbfounded. I was like, this is the same pattern, this is literally the same pattern.

FW: I had this thing where we knocked off a pair of Burberry pants and so we had the physical sample and I had to do the tech sketches for it. So I was looking at every single detail. I knew every single stitch in the garment and then I went to this vintage store and I found that exact pair of pants that was from the '40s that Burberry had knocked off and now we're knocking it. Just goes in a cycle and I feel like everything has already been made, and everything now is just pulling. 

AG: Yeah, 100%. I saw these pants, they were like those sailor pants with the buttons on the side… they kind of give like that marching band vibe. I love those types of pants but I was just like why?

FW: Yeah, the sailor pants.

AG: And it’s not even functional buttons. They're not even like a true flap. I could throw my computer just saying nonfunctional button.

FW: Agree. Or faux flys and it doesn't actually open. It kills me. It kills me. [laughing] Are you looking for fashion when you– is fashion a big part of what you're seeing and liking when you're taking your photographs or is it more organic?

AG: I feel like it's more organic. I feel like if I saw someone with a really cool outfit, I probably wouldn't take a picture of them… But if someone was really bold. And I think that you could be bold with anything, the immediate thoughts of colors, crazy hat or something or the crown. That's a choice, whether it was a special occasion or not. I think that is more so what I would take a picture of. Not that someone wearing an outfit true to them is any more or less; I think there's still the same amount of respect. I just feel some things are easier– I don't want to say like easier to digest cause then that makes it sound like I'm taking pictures for people, but I think it's more common to see someone in a full vintage outfit that looks good rather than someone who's wearing a crown. Which one are you going to see more of… so I'm like let's push it. 

FW: You wanna get the thing that’s special. 

AG: Yeah. Let's push it a little bit and let's normalize you seeing this.

FW: Do you think that you take more photos of strangers or people that you know and your friends? That's just me being curious. 

AG: Hm. That’s really tough. 

FW: Because as I was looking, I was realizing how many of your photos are just like getting random people.

AG: I really like to take pictures of my friends. Um, I honestly would say I take an equal amount. But I think, like, if I love you, a love language is taking your picture. I just never want to forget. That's the thing. I never want to forget. I always want to remember because I love that if someone's like, "What did you do last week?" I could show you what I ate, how I cooked it, what I was wearing, what the people looked like at the grocery store. Who I was with, what the sky looked like, what random thing I saw. I think that's great. And I want to do that for the rest of my life, you know? I have pictures of some of my friends, like my whole polaroid wall thing. Some of those go way back. And so I had my friends who were in the pictures, they went and they saw it and they hadn't seen these ever. And some of my friends had long hair, some of my friends had short hair, some of them had beards, some of them didn't, or they had different colored hair. Um, one of my friends had unfortunately, not to make light of it, but he had passed away. And um, I think that was another turning point for me realizing how important these things are. They use a lot of my pictures for a lot of his stuff… This isn't just cause I like it and I want to show it, this really means something to people. And having my friends see their old selves… I think we just forget cause we're sometimes so stuck on now and how we're perceived now that, you know, sometimes we do have those funny phases or you see how much you have grown or how much of a baby you looked like. Those are real things that I feel like sometimes we just gloss over.

MINOR ISSUE

59:48

FW: The last time that we saw each other, you were here in LA for your friends, Minor Issue, this band, and you were doing video for them. How did that come to fruition? How did you meet them?

AG: So my lovely friend Julian, he went to school with my brother and I met him because my brother would invite his friends over and Julian would come, and I would just be in my room like playing music. And I think one time he was like, "Oh, is that so and so?" And I was like, "Oh, yeah,” like yeah, I'm cool. [laughs] I'm cool older sister or whatever. I had a keyboard and I would make music, blah blah blah. I've always played the piano, or the guitar, stuff like that. So then we would just kind of start talking and we would Snapchat and he was always kind of there. He was at my 18th birthday party cause my brother invited his friends. It wasn't until probably around covid he had just asked me to come over and make music. And it was like the shittiest music you've ever heard. We made a drum loop and we would listen to it on the way to go get food and it was so bad and we thought it was good. So that happened and then a year or two go by, and we would hang out all the time and I would get more into photography and he would get more into music and I would take pictures of him with my new camera or I would film a video for his new song or I would use his song in a video of mine and we would just kind of do this back and forward thing. And he also does photo, video. So we would kind of just share this middle ground. And you know he's one of my closest friends. I feel like we've both grown so much in our own respective ways and I admire him and I would do anything, you know what I mean? Like I would drive across the country in a super packed van with him, you know, no questions asked and I know he would do the same for me. Like we've just always been there in a work sense, and in just like a hang out– So him and my friend Ellie, I knew Ellie separately, I was telling her, "Oh, my friend Julian does music” cause she was doing music, too. And I was like, "Y'all should hang out." She connected with Julian, and they started making music together. Julian knew this other guy and then blah blah blah. Then it became this thing and now they're in this band, and I love them because they're some of my closest friends. 

FW: Cool to witness them organically come together. How many of you were in that van that y’all drove? Wait, so y'all drove from Texas to LA?

AG: Texas to Arizona to LA, from LA back to the Grand Canyon, some random town, and then back to San Antonio. It was Julian, his girlfriend Kam, Ellie, Kristian, Kenny, and me. So it was like two people in the front, three people in the back, and then one person all the way in the back. But then there was all the gear, all the equipment plus everyone's suitcases and all my video equipment. 

FW: Got it. Real packed.

AG: As packed as you think, as packed as it probably could get. When you open it, there's stuff coming out the back. We rented some Toyota something. It was crazy.

FW: How many days were you guys on the road?

AG: It was… I don't know, it was a couple days maybe like five six or maybe it was a week? I don't know, somewhere. It was definitely like five to a week.

FW: Yeah. And then it just kind of blurs.

AG: Yeah. And I've always kind of wanted to do that, go on a tour in a van and– we did that last year. We just did it around Texas. But then this year we were able– like Julian was able to get some connects out in LA and all that. So, like I said, I'm so proud of him and like I said, I would follow them anywhere, in a van, in a car, I just love them.

FW: Awesome. Similarly, I saw just on your Instagram that a while ago you did some video work for these performance artists. Was that in San Antonio as well? Was that a similar word of mouth thing?

1:05:32

AG: There's this guy, Justo I think is how you pronounce it. I met him at my first solo show. He had bought one of– like the second biggest piece I had there and I had never really met him and I was just like wow I love you, it was just crazy… and he put it in his living room and sent me a picture and then the more I looked into him I found out he's this great artist. And he reached out to me to film this, and I was just like wow, not only did he support me but he's continuing to support me and I think he's great. Truly I think he's great, what he does and choreographing and the music. I wish I could– [brings hands to chest] the original music for the performance was insane. I felt it in my chest. I just have a lot of respect for him as an artist. I feel honored that he reached out to me and continued to support me. When I work with people, it's an opportunity to get to know them so closely and then show the world. You know, if you had one second to show the world who this person was, how would you do it? And that's a lot of pressure, but you can't do that by being surface level. You have to really know someone to show their true spirit if possible within one second. But that's why it's so important to be genuine. And I don't know, I try really hard. I feel like I've tried my best to really work on being true to myself and true to others and treating them with respect and hopefully getting it back. You know, that's never guaranteed, but just to be, you know, open and willing. Because that's hard, but no one's perfect, I am not perfect and I want to keep getting better for the sake of others and my own. 

FW: But then it becomes this constant practice. It’s not like all of a sudden one day you get it and you keep it, it’s a constant work towards “How am I gonna be the most honest?”

AG: You have to look within yourself first and ask those really hard questions. I'm not even talking about photography anymore, you know what I mean? I don't think either of us are. But I think that's why things change so much cause you continue– You keep looking within and it keeps changing and changing and changing. Maybe not so much changing but growing, hopefully. I feel blessed because, like yeah, I'm lucky, but I'm blessed because these things are meeting you where you're at and the more you grow, the more things will meet you there.

FW: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I have this thing about luck where I'm like– same thing I feel very lucky and very blessed but then when I look at the moments that I'm talking about… well, sure, it was partially timing and partially like, I happened to be there at the right time or meet the right person or some chance connection, but then at the same time behind it, backing it is a ton of just pure hard work and practice and research.

AG: Mhm.

**FALLWINTER2002GIRL PICKS **

1:14:20

FW: Real quick. I have three photos [that I picked]. I'm gonna see if I can screen share.

AG: God, okay. Why these photos? Cause I feel like these are really random pulls.

FW: I like this because– I was just scrolling and looking on my desktop kind of from far away. I like how the sidewalk looks like–

AG: A cross. 

FW: A cross. Was that intentional… Did you see that or do you– 

AG: Well, I mean, they were just sitting there. Unintentionally, I feel like some of my work is at such high angles. But that is on the left, my friend Grace, Grace Hayden. On the right, Kayla Whitaker. I love them. This was on set of a short film that Kayla was directing and I was the onset photographer. So, this is one of my pictures. I guess I'm just going to go off. 

FW: [nods] Okay.

AG: Kayla, a lot of her work kind of reminds me of Sophia Coppola, amongst several other people who are very notable, but I feel like in preparation– I have the Sophia Coppola archive book of all the photos from her from her sets and today I picked up the Virgin Suicides book… I remember looking through it, of only the films that I had seen cause I didn't want to spoil the other ones. I feel like Kayla gave that vibe and I kind of wanted to give her the same but in my style. Like these people, Sophia Coppola’s photographer, Kayla and me, how can we–

FW: Yeah. Where do they all intersect.

AG: I was kind of trying to give that a little. But you know, you can't force a picture. I was just trying to get everyone just doing their thing and they were out just sitting there and it just so happened to– I think there's another angle and it didn't look so direct but with most of my photos I kind of like to have something in the middle. I think the other photo has more of the car… I feel like it didn't give it as much of that grid. I think that's why I liked this one better. And it just seems so candid.

FW: Yeah it seems sweet. It reminds me, this reminds me of my friend Sophie. This looks like two of Sophie. So, it's that thing that you were talking about earlier, even if I was just a stranger looking at this photo popped up in my algorithm, I can see something of myself and my life and my friends in it. It also feels to me very much like this age that I'm at… I'm at literally an intersection and I can go in any direction, not to get too granular with the visual metaphor.

AG: Yeah. And they're just chilling in the middle.

FW: [nods] They are having this moment that's separate from the events of the day.

AG: And believe it or not everyone and everything is around them. The van with the equipment. To the left there's like a setup, and there's people coming in around, like they're all going around them. So it was funny you know, you wouldn't know that but you have your own connection.

1:21:08

AG: Oh my god, the bird. That was on a crazy day. I met one of my friends who I was like, "Wow, we connect." And and I saw the bird on my drive to my parents and every time a car passed the wing would open and I was just like… in the cringy artist way, I was like “This is profound” and I was telling them I need to go back and– I try to get better at going back to take a picture or turning around or stopping in my tracks and taking a picture. So, I made my brother come with me and watch me as I got out of the car and it's busy. I have a picture of him right before I took it cause I was like “Should I reload this or use these two photos for it?” and he was like “Reload it,” whatever. But that one was on a special day and I felt like it was this, this sign of a literal death or a rebirth of this new thing and how beautiful it was, it extending itself even in death being open. For each person that passed by, the wind would knock it open but it was for each person passing by, extending its literal heart… That's just how I saw it and I felt the same way.

FW: And the fact it called you enough to go back. I have times where I see something and then I just pass by it and then I'm like, well, now that's just a mental photograph. Like now it's gone forever.

AG: Yeah, but sometimes there are things that you just can't, and it pains me but I think those are just as important as things you get the perfect shot of. Like the other day I was on the patio and this guy is on a moped and his daughter is in front of him on the moped with her hands up and sunglasses on and they passed by just slow enough where I could have easily, all day, just like, picture picture picture but my phone was dead and I missed it. And I just let it happen. But those are– sometimes you’ve just got to just enjoy that, you know. I could probably tell you a couple other times. It's just how it is.

FW: Sometimes when I have stuff like that, I'll write it down or I'll put it in my notes if it happened too fast to take a photo of it, because then I still have it and I can still [taps temple with pointer finger] still see it.

AG: Yeah.

FW: Okay. The last photo is this woman.

AG: This is me trying to be like, "Can I take your photo?" This was like in my friend Dustin's booth, I was at a vintage pop up. I wasn’t working there… I think I had just gone, had friends there but I was hanging out in his setup and funny enough I feel like he also attracts characters and… he's really outspoken, he really speaks like [motions passionately with hands] that's how he goes. He's just a funny guy, too. So, he just attracts all different types of people unknowingly. This lady, she was with someone, I think she was with a younger guy maybe he was my age. But her hair just stuck out to me and I was like, "Wow, that's crazy." And like I said, specifically around this time I was trying to get better– I was watching a lot of street photography and I was like, how do these people approach other people and get their photo? Like I think I’ve just got to get better at asking… and I need to get rejected sometimes. So I was kind of just like “Hey, your hair is super sick. Can I take a picture of you?” She was like, "Yeah, sure." So, I took this one and I think there might have been one without the flash.

FW: I love this photo so much.

AG: It was something I liked and then this was me just trying to get better at putting myself out there and potentially getting rejected. Sometimes I do ask people to be still and straight and make a straight face but also my favorite thing about people is them. I feel like whenever I'm taking a picture of someone I kind of wait for that one second where they're– not looking away but where– Like I could have waited till she showed her teeth at me or something. I feel like if I waited she would have smiled. But I feel like if anyone was fine with me taking their photo, this is exactly how I would have taken it.

CLOSING

1:28:44

FW: Okay, my last thing– since we're talking about a photograph capturing a moment… I feel like I personally, it's visceral each time I look, and it's the same feeling. And I feel like a lot of the time I don't realize what that feeling is until later. Like I’m less aware of what the feeling of a certain time period of my life is while I'm in it and then it's easier to kind of pinpoint it when it's encapsulated in photos and music and whatever clothes I was wearing at the time. So if you were to time capsule yourself right now, however broad the period of time is, what would you want to remember? What if you were to read this back, what do you want to highlight or what do you want to keep around? What themes?

AG: Themes. Um, themes. Okay. Well, let me just start with this cause that's too big for me to think about right now. We're going to start small. [picks up tea] This is– I've always loved this tea, but I feel like right now whenever I go to H-E-B I'm always like, I'm gonna get this. I’m just gonna get it. Cooking. I've been cooking a lot and I really enjoy it. Communication and being patient. And I think all of these have to do with the same thing. Like cooking, you have to be patient and be intentional. You have to be like, "What am I going to get from the grocery store? What do I need for this recipe? What do I want to eat today?” All those types of things. And I think that is kind of how I'm trying to go about things right now in my life. Being patient, having intention. I feel like sometimes I have lacked intention and it's kind of like, I wish I didn't do that or I could have handled this differently… also being more open, humility, you know… This is kind of hard.

FW: Okay I'll give, I'll help. I'll give an example… Fun is a theme for me right now, like to just relax and just be silly because I feel like I forget and I get caught up in accomplishing something or checking off boxes and I forget. I feel like if I was to answer this question, it would be focusing on, [laughing] on fun.

AG: I guess that too. Like my friend this week was like… and my therapist, sitting in these moments of pleasure. She was like “You drove to Austin and you came to the softball game and you hung out with your friends and you made two runs and now we're drinking beer and those are– you did good.” Like you came and you saw your friends and that's– you're doing a good thing. You're spending time with people you love and we won and it's good and just sit in that. And I was trying to be like, “No I get it. No, I get it.” But she wouldn't let me. And she was like, “Just sit in that. You deserve these good things.” Like it's okay to sit and enjoy and have a day where everything goes right. It's okay and you deserve that. So I guess that is right now what I want to get better at, is being like, it's okay that I had a good dinner and I saw a good movie and nothing went bad. You know, that's okay.

FW: There doesn’t need to be a catch.

AG: Yeah, exactly. I always think there's a catch. But there doesn't have to be.

FW: Yeah, I know about that, like constantly waiting for the other shoe to drop or something.

AG: Exactly.

FW: Wow. Okay. I feel like this is a good place to– a good place to close it.

AG: [cat enters]

FW: Hey. Oh my god. I wondered if we were going to get an Oliver feature.

AG: I think he was asleep or something cause he was really quiet.

FW: [talking to cat] Hey dude.

AG: Normally he'll be kind of all over the place, but I think he was asleep.

FW: Sweetie. Okay, I'm–

AG: Yeah, he's sweet–

FW: gonna end the recording now.

☆☆☆

☆☆☆

☆☆☆

The following is an interview with Joseph B. (@anyfoolltellya), Roman Casper (@roman), and @networkp. This conversation took place on Sunday, October 19th over Google Meet. During the editing process we noticed many errors with the original transcription, please excuse the occasional spelling mistake.

00:00:00

 
NP: So the way I have been thinking about the road as I've been sort of prepping for these conversations is essentially the road as kind of an abstraction for where you go and what you experience and what goes on in between point A and point B. Sometimes you know you're on the road. Sometimes you don't know you're on the road. Sometimes you know where point A is. Sometimes you know where point B is. Sometimes those points are changing. And sometimes the cliche — you realize that the road was really the destination and not point A or point B. And so I think that in today's world, the role of movement, wandering, sort of like identity formation, change, evolution is as dynamic as ever, and I think that people could be a little bit more informed. And then through being informed, become less anxious about the winding paths that end up defining people's lives. And so yeah, through knowing y'all in different capacities, Roman pretty closely, Joseph less so, it seems like both of y'all might have something to offer about just the concept of the road and like how that applies to your life.

RC: I have so many thoughts, Max, on the road. I don't even really know where to start, but the reason I became so interested in the road initially is kind of just because I love driving so much. Growing up in New York, I had like one or two friends who had licenses in high school and then I got mine like three or four years ago. So I feel like I'm still a road addict, and I just love driving, which kind of got me obsessed with the road. Like the more time I spent driving, the more time I spent looking at the road. And then I have my road channel on river where I'm just documenting the road. The bio for that channel is like “good and bad coales on the road.” So, I feel like it's also a very neat metaphor for where everybody ends up sometimes. And it's kind of like the road is obviously like a liminal space. I almost think of the pit of souls in Hercules, specifically like the Disney version where he looks over the edge and there's just like souls swimming around in a soup. You know, the road is just like where every soul kind of exists together for a little moment before flying off and dispersing. But there's also a a poet, author, philosopher who's super influential in my, and a lot of other people's work, whose name is Edward Gleason. And he's from Martineique, and he writes a lot about the concept of Errentry, which is like moving kind of randomly throughout the world. As someone who’s Caribbean, he's from a place that's a very small island that's subject to tons of tourism, and he rants about tourism as a pretty nasty way to experience or relate to the world because it's so one-dimensional or like broadcasty. Tourism is like I have found a destination, I'm going to go to this destination, I'm going to do X Y and Z, it's very like conquistador mentality you know, whereas like errentry and the idea of just wandering and letting the road take you places and going where interest and curiosity direct you, or like going places based on a conversation – that way of moving through the world is much more… I don't know if healthy is the right word, but it's definitely more social, and it's less conquest vibes and less one directional. It's a more complex and maybe realer way of living. So I love the road as an abstraction of errentry because the road winds and it can take you to many unpredictable places. And I love it for just how people swim and exit out of it and how it brings people together in such a unique way.

JB: Yeah, I'd like to add to that because it seems like in terms of railroading, all major metropolises in America are linked by railroads. And so you can have a vague concept of “I want to string point A and point B together,” but what happens in between is entirely up to chance and sort of the dice roll of, you know, a train route being planned one way.

 
NP: For general context, Joseph was documenting a trip on Instagram stories over the summer and it seemed to be related to a train. That's kind of the extent of our previous relationship heading into this conversation.

RC: Was it a hellish and fun errant little train ride?

JB: That experience can definitely be hellish and austere in so many ways, but it's something that I personally have been engaged with for roughly a decade or so, and crossing the continent was always something that I had planned to do. But shorter trajectories, predominantly on the north/south lateral of the west coast and the same on the east coast, had been most of my experience. Connecting coast to coast was something I'd never pulled off successfully. And then in August of this year, I was able to. But not in one fell swoop, that's for sure.

NP: Is it even pull off-able?

JB: Yeah, that's one thing about humans transporting themselves via cargo train. It's truly the destination being the trajectory; cobbling together these desperate routes and railroad companies, and finding the timing of one train arriving in a place and another train departing from a place. And when you sort of expand it out to the scale of trying to go from Atlantic to Pacific or vice versa, the idea is, you know, there's so many chances of any kind of unknown unfolding in front of you, and just sort of dancing around that unknown is part of what makes the experience so unique.

RC: I remember learning so much in school about all the different train companies in the west and the east of the country meeting together in the middle. I feel like that was how it was described in school. It's interesting to think about the reality of literal different railroads having to connect in weird ways or needing to transfer the train because the hardware is different west of a certain point, you know, like those sorts of intricacies are super interesting.

JB: Yeah, absolutely. And pretty fun to nerd out on as well. I'm really really glad you said that. The idea of incompatibility of hardware and needing to adjust that and then the way that that transforms through America's – and when I say America I mean North America's – geography, and how dramatically that can change in a thousand miles to 2,000 miles to 3,000 miles.

NP: Yeah. Were there various official, or maybe singular official, or unofficial reasons you went on this trip?

JB: Official maybe doesn't feel like the the proper way to talk about it, but I definitely do feel as though that type of travel goes really seamlessly with sort of the ethos and approach that I feel like I try to live in my daily life, and informs how I think about the ways that humans can exist outside of perceived norms, generally. That's sort of a lofty, grandiose way of thinking about it. But just the idea that for hundreds of years now, human beings have been able to cheat the system in this particular way. You know, being able to travel throughout the world unencumbered – And that's to say, there's other ways of doing that, too. You know, driving a junky car successfully thousands of miles or you know, people who go on elaborate walking journeys. And back to you, Max, the idea that there isn't necessarily an official reason for why I wanted to do it as much as I'm amazed that it can be done. For me, the pragmatic side of things and the logistical things was I got to visit old friends all across America and looking at my bank statement after three weeks of traveling and saying “wow I've gone 3,000 miles and I've spent $150.” I mean we definitely all think of ways to sort of supersede and transform our lives, and exist apart from the capitalist superstructure. But this is something that I've actually experienced where, through the clandestine illegality of moving yourself that way, you can quote unquote beat one system, I guess.

NP: I'm just so interested in knowing everything. So yeah, whatever you're open to share, I'd love to know about.

JB: Well, I can give you both just the trajectory and we can kind of examine it specifically or generally, however you like. But we left southern Maine, which is where I live, and that took us to, let's say, the greater Boston area. That's the first leg. And the thing about New England is it's predominantly slow trains that don't cover a lot of physical distance. That's just sort of nature speaking back to the ways that trains and geography need to conform. And then from that Massachusetts hopping off point, there is a train that we discerned was able to carry us all the way to Chicago. So that was the first long leg, and I think that ended up being like 40 to 50 hours riding a train car through those states. I spent time in Chicago visiting with dear friends, old and new. I think we really lucked out with the weather. This was a beautiful time of year to travel outdoors. From Chicago, then we went to Green River, Wyoming, which is an old rail town. You know, that's much of what you see in the west. If they're not big cities, they’re these towns that historically are relevant. We spent a night there and then Green River, Wyoming to the Bay Area. Then finally, the Bay Area where I also spent the space of a week visiting with folks in my community there. And then the Bay Area to Portland, Oregon. So it ended up being effectively a Portland, Maine to Portland, Oregon trajectory.

NP: Wow. What was the situation like being on the trains? Was it like passenger trains? Or I guess you said it was cargo trains. Is that something you can just do? You can just be on cargo trains?

JB: Well, there's a lot of nuance to trying to answer that question. This is something that I've explained a fair amount of time to folks not in that world.

NP: Yeah, for some background, I've read a decent amount of people doing these kinds of really expansive walking situations before. Maybe it was across the US. It could have been somewhere else, but I think it was across the US. And just like all the crazy s*** that happens when you try to just walk places. I think they were walking across, you know what it was? I think they were walking across railroads. Like they were using railroads as their kind of map or something. I totally don't remember the story at all, but it's basically the fact that like as soon as you start doing that, you're technically on like various types of private property and then depending on who you are, – depending on if you're a white dude or not – it starts becoming way less chill really quickly. So, that's the most I know about this type of wandering vibe.

JB: Thank you for speaking to the idea of perceived privilege and the way that you represent yourself and how that can make something like this easier or more difficult depending. I will say, yeah, I mean, doing what we've done, or what we do, I guess, traveling this way, it is against the law, simply put. In the sense that it is trespassing on private property. That's sort of just an acceptance that I think folks who decide to do it kind of encompass. They decide to enter into the social contract of if yeah, if you're going to do it, it does have legal consequences potentially. But that being said, I mean, my experience on this last trip was incredibly lucky. In my perspective, I feel like if I can have any kind of trip riding freight trains and walk away with no physical injury and be without any legal trouble, it seems like somewhat of a win.

NP: I feel like the role of luck when we go back to sort of the abstract concept of the road, is really interesting, and it's almost one of those things that I feel is so interesting because you have to enter into it without really knowing what's going to happen. But the only way you can sort of receive the luck of the road is by taking the risk in the first place. It's like luck and the things that happen on the road only happen by being on the road. You cannot be in your little place chilling, being like, "Oh, I wish I could be on the road and get everything that gives to me, but not be on the road." You actually have to sacrifice or take risks to even be there. And so I think that is one of the things that keeps a lot of people away from ever getting to have these types of experiences. And again, we're talking generally here. It's not only about are you on train tracks like trespassing across the country. It's also like are you going to embark on this new personal journey to do anything? Getting yourself to take that first step I think is one of the biggest hurdles most people face in any personal or group endeavor.

One of the topics of the magazine that keeps coming up is the role of agency and the role of action, and specifically the role that, above almost everything else, action takes precedence over everything. Like you can think of things for a long time. You can have strong opinions. You can receive so much information and research everything, but at the end of the day, it really does come down to basic things like where did you go today and who did you vote for and where did you put your money? And if you like you can do as much thinking as you want. But when it really comes down to it, it's like did you get on the train? Did you start going from point A to point B or did you not? A lot of people get lost or they never even get to the point of taking action.

RC: I think the road is definitely like a catalyst. Like the idea of the road feels like something that easily activates things happening to you. Like it doesn't even need to be overly dramatic. It's not like I need a change in my life or like I need a major switch up, but you hit the road when you need a little feedback from the world. You know what I mean? And I think the journey is the destination stuff comes from like the Jack Kerouac on the road stuff. I've read a lot of the haiku that informed his thinking, like all the classic Basho stuff. And Basho is this great classic Japanese poet who I guess perfected or like made the form of the haiku what it is today. And he did that through this travelog that gets translated in different ways. Sometimes it's like, “narrow road to the deep north.” Other times “narrow road to the interior,” right? Which in itself is like a great way to distill what the road is and the metaphor of it. Just the difference in translation between the road to the deep north and the road to the interior because he's going into the heartland of the country, but he's using it as a way to investigate the interior of himself also, you know. And the idea is like this: this travelog is filled with these haikus of everywhere he's going.
 
And each haiku is trying to get deeper into the self. Each poem is trying to unlock another moment of spontaneous realization of the world and beauty. But he uses traveling through the world in a very random way to find this information, these realizations, and to get data about the world. And then to realize more about himself. Um, so I'm really obsessed with that stuff and I feel like I definitely use the road for inspiration, I guess, is the simplest way to put it. When I'm feeling stuck, it's like I just go drive for an hour and then I see something and then it inspires a beautiful metaphor or a line of writing and then I get back home and I have like a thousand more words, you know, because I went on a little drive and like saw something wonderful for one second. And that's what it's all about for me. That's why I love the road.
 
JB: I really like the idea of Basho having a duality of examining a physical journey and an interior journey.

RC: He's the one. Travel-log was really like when me and Max first started talking together and when I first started showing him writing and then doing stuff for him and River. I feel like Travel-log  was, and is, my favorite, uh I don't think I write in the form of travel, but it is kind of travelogy. Different place settings speak to mindsets and mentalities in a way that I think is, for me as a writer, it's often like I can only explain human emotions and interactions successfully through descriptions of place and what it's like to be in a place where something is happening. So they're super integral to me.

JB: I guess to zoom in a little bit, I will also go back, Max, to your question about “reasons why” or motivation. There's so much beauty to the idea that this technology is in some ways completely obsolete and yet continually perseveres through the march of time. You'd think the freeway system would completely dissolve it, and it did in many ways. People don't use passenger rail the way that they did pre World War. But it's still around, and I think a huge part of it is how it's tied to the poetic memory and the poetic identity of people living in North America specifically. I mean something could be said for Europeans as well. Something could be said for Asians and Africans and South Americans, but I'm speaking specifically about so many desperate voices – think in terms of the railroad in terms of creative expression.

RC: That's such an interesting thing to bring up because I totally agree, but it feels so uniquely American too, that like we cling. Like American culture is so clingy and nostalgic that it's like of course we would still be obsessed with this fantasy of the railroad. But the impossible inertia with which people are trying to fix the railroads or upgrade them, or like, the lack of there being a highspeed railroad even though we are still so culturally obsessed. I mean, we really are like a split conscious culture where it's like we f****** love cars. We love that. It reminds me of – there are all these clips I'm seeing of  the New York mayoral debate recently and there's that funny ass question about like Knicks game seven, Mets game seven which one are you going to? Did y'all see that? They're asking the mayoral candidates, “okay, the Knicks are playing game seven of the finals, the Mets are playing game seven, like which one are you going to?” And this guy Cuomo is like, "I think I could do half and half. I think I could go back and forth." And like, Zohran just starts laughing and it's like, "Dude, this is what people are sick of. Like, pick a f****** team, you know?" So, it's like we Americans love having these, you know, cake and eat it too like contradictory fantasies.

NP: Yeah, I feel like it's an integration question. Like when you say the split consciousness thing, it's like can you embody that? Because that to me is related to the second issue of the magazine as well, talking about personal practice and like person practice, and how everything you're doing is essentially practicing. Or you can think about it this way: everything you're doing is essentially practicing being a person and when you think about it, from that way you're able to dissolve these artificial lines between like “Oh, I'm working or I'm eating or I'm meeting friends.” It's like you're just living and practicing and experiencing things. And I was just going to say I think a huge part of the US and just modern capitalist issues is the kind of artificial lines that get placed in that kind of segment yourself and like splinter yourself. Like it's not like out of choice. It's sort of just happening and you don't really get to choose that you’re segmenting yourself that way. But I think that is one of the causes of a lot of disharmony of how people live. And that's where the past few years I felt so fortunate because it just so happens to be that this project we've been working on has so completely obliterated the lines of work and life and friendship and play and other things, that I can't imagine having to restructure some of those walls against my will.

Of course, it's helpful to sort of compartmentalize in different scenarios, but I feel like that is a topic that's also sort of a timely topic for younger people trying to create meaning in their world. Which is like, where are these lines that exist that I didn't necessarily choose? Are these the lines of meaning? Are these the railroads I would be following or are these laid down way before me? Not necessarily by people who are thinking about what was good for me.

RC: The balance of agency or like free will and things just happening constantly is something I am always trying to figure out. And like I get so f***** up over how simple of a thought it is, but how impossible it is to express. I've tried writing these lines of poetry so many times that will just be like “I know things happen and constantly,” or like a phrase like this where like I'm trying to figure out how to articulate it. In the context of the road it's so interesting because it's just funny. I had this friend who was visiting LA and like we're driving around so much and he starts talking about how this was such a funny random leadup to this convo cuz I was kind of thinking the past few days, like “what am I doing to think about the road enough in preparation for this conversation?” I think it was great that I didn't do too much deliberately, but I'm in the car with this guy and he's talking about how he was just using consumption with with the road and talking about how we were consuming so much road basically, and I was like dude I feel like the road is not about consumption. For me, consumption is like a very deep political topic that refers specifically to what gets done with the mouth and material transformation, and again, kind of like the conqueror mentality And I was looking at him being like, "Dude, you think I have any chance of consuming the road? Like this s*** is not – Sure, it's like passing through me or by me in some way, but like I'm not doing s*** to this road. Like the road is the same. I passed the road and the road behind me is the same as the road before I passed it, you know?"

NP: Even though you might be different, the road is not being affected.

RC: And it's like, sure, in a technical, small scale way I've changed the road by passing over it. I accept that there is free will and agency, but really like I didn't do all that much. And I'm trying to figure out this distinction between consumption and motion. It's like we strive to go faster, and a lot of people write or argue that we strive to consume things. But I feel like that's a specific attitude, and that not everything is consumption. A lot of philosophers who cross over into science or people like my friend here think that the only thing that happens is consumption, like he thinks that at a fundamental level. Bigger energies consume smaller energies. Reading it through like entropy or like whatever. But I'm like, we have to get past this subject-eating object mentality or even this like point A point B mentality cuz it really is just like things happening all the time, which is more of a mound conversation than a road conversation. But history in the universe is just a pot, it's just a big big heap, right? There's no like f****** direction to anything which I feel like we're all talking about and in agreement on, but I don't know, what do you guys think? I feel like the way you talk about your train story, Joseph, it doesn't feel like there was any attitude of like I'm consuming the land here.

JB: Well, I mean, literally what you just said brought up for me the idea that what's beautiful about humans deciding to transport themselves on cargo trains is that route, and that cargo is going to be consumed. The cargo is being shipped to be consumed by individuals somewhere on Earth, and it's a corporate entity that's carrying it out. However, the now centuries old story, or at least a century old story, is someone taking advantage of that consumption in a secondhand way and transporting themselves, whether for adventure or to better their quality of life or reasons that are less tangible than both of those things, right? The idea that they're able to do it by existing on this fringe of something that's already happening, that to me speaks to what you're saying about there being consumption and then there's this other thing that is somewhere between consumption and action.

RC: I mean, that's such a lovely thing to bring up because it's also like – I've never been on cargo trains, but the moving image I have in my mind is like some porky dude swings open the door and is like “hey you can't,” but it's like in that in that moment of discovery, if you are discovered, you're thrown right off that train because you are not consumable. Like someone finds you and it's like “hey wait you're not food get the f*** out of here!” So the idea just goes back to a conqueror mentality, the idea that you can only move quickly and cheaply if you are something that can be consumed. Like we have we have systems in place for cheap public transport and we've reserved them for b*******.

JB: Yeah, I mean it's not advantageous for the powers to incentivize ways of transporting yourself cheaply. And I mean, in this case it's deincentivized to the point of being, you know, different varying degrees of illegality.

RC: And when you are consumable, like when you're working somewhere and have to do something, they'll figure out how to get you there ASAP, right?

JB: Yeah, that's an important thing that I think I'd love to examine with you guys or just chew on, is the idea that train hopping and time are two things that cycle in this way. A lot of, I think, the reasons why folks ,to your point Max, don't just go out and try to cross the country on a free train is because you have to surrender to the premise that you have no guarantee that it's going to take a decided, clear, understood amount of time. And you basically just have to subject yourself to that pretty dramatic unknown which you might be able to do monetarily cheaply, but it could cost you in time, and that's something that if you're willing to accept and embrace it, it ends up paying off.

NP: Yeah, it's funny you bring up the like time is money thing. I feel like it's more just like time is valuable, but obviously that ends up getting measured in money a lot of the time. But even to just speak about the magazine experiment as a quick tangent, the original concept I had for doing the magazine was like a four month kind of – like the way I think a magazine is supposed to happen, which is like you set out a big plan, you identify a lot of people you want to talk to. You do all this like oh someone, either yourself or someone else, is like figuring out how it's going to get printed – and then you go on this big journey of doing all these interviews and you spend all this time editing and you spend all this time sourcing photos and do photo shoots and it takes like four months if you're lucky. And then you finally do something. But in doing that you just spend so much time, and time is so finite and such a valuable resource, that spending four months on something is like, I hope you really know that's what you want to do, or I hope you're really going to get something out of it, even if it's not like a success or anything, at least you're going to learn, right? And so I remember presenting the concept to the team and they were like “eh that's kind of long, you know it's like it's kind of a long process, like you sure you're going to do that? Like it sounds cool and it'll probably be good, but like what does that even mean? We don't even know what ‘good’ means. So how can you even know that it's going to be worth your time?” Fortunately, because I've had experience with always trying to find simpler and simpler and simpler versions of things, I was able to basically, in the span of like a day or two go from “okay yeah this is going to be like a four-month project that culminates in January,” to “actually the first issue is going to come out next Friday.” 

And from doing that pivot, it allows the amount of time being invested into the particular action be way lower, and then by doing that, completely depressurizes the situation and actually allows me to tap into the kind of like fortunate, lucky, random unknown. You could call it the road, or something like “alright, it's way less serious.” And now because it's less serious, it can actually become more serious, and that's the crazy thing that's happening, which is – as these conversations are happening, as these issues are coming out and people are resonating, the validation of the concept itself is becoming more and more clear, which then is turning into the reason to potentially take it more seriously and maybe doing something bigger. My quick response is that I keep understanding time as more and more valuable. And something I was thinking is basically for people who don't have that much wisdom yet but more wisdom than like a baby, do you have any tips for people on the road or like how they even think about the road? 

f I had one, I guess my first tip or my first concept is like, whatever you're about to embark on, is there a simpler quicker version? Not because you're trying to cut corners, but because you're trying to purposely be hella precious with your time, and you don't want to unnecessarily, if there if there happens to be a a different training for what you're about to do, miss out on the opportunity of starting quicker and doing something smaller, which might inform your larger journey because the larger journeys, I think that's kind of the big thing. It's not always like that you can take August and travel across the country. Like that's something that only happens because you like to spend probably a large portion of your life thinking about it directly or indirectly and then finally all the stars align to give you the freedom, flexibility, and moment to do that. But like if you sort of just start there, of course you throw yourself on the road to see what happens. But if you're an uninformed passenger, or like you know person on the road, the chance your s*** is going to get f***** up is so high.

RC: I think on the time tip, I think the road is like such an easy way to see how time and space are like the same thing, which is kind of related to what I'm saying about moving through space being a crucial way through which I understand how I'm moving through time. You feel me? Like that's what Travel-og is and that's what I mean about going different places to like get inspiration. It's very hard to understand what is going on, what the f*** time is doing if you're not moving. And I feel like we have these words in English like “further” and “farther” and one refers to time and one refers to place, but also when you're driving to the restaurant, you are both however many miles away and however many minutes away, right? And those are both like the same thing. Like 20 minutes away is a physical distance.

So the road really helps me pay attention to what the f*** is happening in my life. I think the take it less seriously to take it more seriously is such an important thing, Max. I've been doing a lot of rereading of Pope.L's work and specifically the whole theory stuff, and what he describes the whole as at one point is a platform of nothing from which everything can be engaged, which I also think is kind of related to this “take it less seriously to take it more seriously” and it's related to the hobby mentality. Like I spent years ago taking music really really seriously and thinking like this is really what I'm about to do and doing all these shows multiple times a week and really stressing about where I was going or whatever. And now I'm at a point where it's just a hobby and like really everything I do is just a hobby, and all of a sudden I feel so good about everything I'm doing. So the two big thesis from this year, which Max is already super familiar with, are like normal people up next. Everything is a hobby. Also, like forget everything and start over or keep going. Like this is what I'm trying to embody. And I honestly think that being more willing to just go wherever or travel this year and write more – because I'm doing all of that intentionally – I think it has helped me solidify these ideas as things that are really important to me. People think the road or like traveling is very a spacey time, but for me it is super not spacey and it's kind of how I get grounded.

JB: Clearing your head by, you know, getting behind the wheel and going somewhere.

RC: Yeah. And it's like yes, clearing your head, but I think for a lot of people clearing your head is kind of like emptying your head, right? But it's like we're not clearing the head. We are like getting situ, you know.

NP: Reorganizing. Refreshing

JB: Yeah. My advice, if it were advice, although I would think more just mantra, I think it speaks to both of what you have said and also maybe recontextualizes it. I can only kind of speak to what worked for me and what has worked for me. And I truly believe that on the road, the most self liberation you can find is in surrendering yourself to the dice roll of what is to come. I mean you can look down a length of road but there's going to be bends. There's going to be, in the railroad terminology, there's junctions, there's splits. And to lean toward an unknown is really the most empowering thing we have rather than try to cower from it.

RC: Yeah. And I think Max is right about like finding the simplest forms. Um, and like you can lean there are so many ways every day in which you can lean into unpredictability in a way that is not going to does not run the risk of f****** up your life. You know, one time in Sicily, like I took a I took a weird turn because I wanted to go check out this ghost town and like I ended up like kind of stuck in this like abandoned town with like this really weird guy who like would not leave me alone was like following the you know like it's obviously in foreign countries in the middle of nowhere you can end up in very strange situations but I think like on some corny s*** or not on some corny s*** like waking up and like doing a 15 minute walk is like you will if you're paying attention you will guaranteed every time you go outside find something that will spark some some new I mean I don't I'm really not sure how to make this sound as as important or as emotional as I think it can be as an experience but like it's really like you go outside some mornings and walk around and you're like holy s*** like no way at just something you walk past you know and so being open to literally just like going on a walk in the morning can be can do numbers for your mental and I feel like that's where the road starts you know and you take baby steps and then one day maybe you will get on passenger or freight trains across the country but like small small steps and leaning towards unpredictability even when it's like every time this summer when like someone invited me to something and I was like I'm not going to go and then I ended up going it was a

JB: Amen. RC: great time and a lot of the times where I was like I feel like I have to go to this thing and ended up going, it felt whack.

RC: You know what I'm saying? So, which ties back to like yeah, leaning leaning away from like forced destinations um in just whatever whatever way you can be my tip. JB: Yeah. Yeah, there was Okay, I was just I realized that I didn't tell you guys about within, you know, the literal trajectory of this this trip that we've been talking about that I took, there was um a pretty crucial NP: This is kind of random. Oh, sorry. JB: moment where in Utah um a wye, which is a three-way railroad crossing, that could have borne the train that I was passenger on toward Oregon and Portland which was ultimately a destination. You know, I had in my mind sort of the poetic association of it being a Portland, Maine to Portland, Oregon trip, uh, or alternatively, um, towards California and over the Sierra Nevada and into the Bay Area. And, you know, had I been paying for transport to travel, that would have been a decision that I would have made for myself, you know, a question of like, 1500 miles.

JB: Yeah. I think it'd be better if I knew where my terminus would be, but the beauty of being able to say I just hopped this train in Wyoming. Uh it's going west. That's one thing I can tell you for sure. This train is going west. Whether it's going to stop um you know with finality with my arrival in this state or that state. A question of hundreds and you know a thousand miles say that I don't know um and I think surrendering to that uh and or or not yeah surrender to the acceptance of that unknown was a really it it afforded um like untold wonder

RC: Yeah, I can imagine. I think like what am I doing here is like the best question like I that's my favorite question to ask myself. It's like what am I doing here, you know? How did I end up here?.

JB: How did I get here?

NP: Yeah, I feel like the it's come up a little bit recently in just uh convos I've been having, but like um like I I feel like something I've been encountering a lot this year or the past few years and I feel like I've made strides and understanding this year is just like understanding and grappling with fear. um mainly of the unknown or mainly of like risk and stuff, but I think the unknown is like the biggest thing and like the one of the biggest blockers towards taking action in the way we were talking about earlier is just like can you get over fear, you know, like are you able to like have some system of belief or mindset? It doesn't have to be like a whole life belief. If it can be specific to the situation or maybe you're drawing from like some deeper like system that allows you to like take that first step andI feel like that there's probably a whole part two conversation on fear and systems of belief and like how are you supposed to have a system of belief in 2025 if uh or yeah just like I feel like so many historical systems of belief continue to just like crumble or be purposely erased or like accidentally forgotten as the years go by and it feels like there's not really a ton of new ones being defined really greatly or purposefully.

Um, this is kind of random, but this is the first time I've taken one of these calls outside.

RC: Thanks for random.

NP: I'm on the canal in Gowanus right now. And so I just wanted to show you all this view because it's so nice right now.

JB: Oh, beautiful.

RC: Perfect in New York.

NP: It's like 65 sunny kind of like end of summer vibes, beginning of fall. It's some type of open studios weekend here. 

JB: That's really funny. I've done a lot of inner city freight train rail fanning and train spotting very near to the Gowanus Canal. A lot of the trains that New York City uses to transport out their garbage is headquartered in that part of Brooklyn.

RC: The fear s*** really is a whole separate conversation. I'm kind of tight. You brought it up at the end. But yeah, I feel like a big thing for me that I realized the more I wander into places is like how manufactured the fear of public space is simply from the vantage point of like how Chicago is too dangerous for you to go to. New York's too dangerous for you to go to. France, Paris is too dangerous for you to go to. Delhi, forget about it. Cairo, like you're everybody around the world is literally told that every city they're going to get robbed and murdered. You feel me? And there's so much propaganda around literally like they do not want us to be outside together, bro. Like there's fear around peaceful protests. There's cops popping out for barbecues out on the front of the street, you know? And like they really do not want us to be outside talking to each other, which kind of is what like the distinction between tourism and errantry is.

JB: Yeah, you engage with the community.

 
RC: And it's like if you go places as a tourist, you might find yourself, you're gonna you're way more likely to find yourself in a sticky situation. But like everybody on planet Earth, like this sounds so corny and maybe does not make it into the recording, but like everyone is dead ass a human, right? Like we are all literally not even on some we're all the same because I really don't think people are the same and I think there's a big limit to how deeply you can understand and relate to people which is amazing. But like we are all humans are all trying to do the same s*** around the world. We all are dead ass just trying to chill and there's all these fake ass chillers. But if you go anywhere with a true chiller mentality, you will be received with open arms most likely.

NP: Yo totally... I was going to say that I think one final tip that's a little bit of a push back to something you were saying with like the point A and point B destination stuff. I think that or like I would posit that it's really important to have a possible point B in mind when you enter the road. But it's it's really important because if you're going into the road with no point B, it's like on some roulette s***. It's like rolling the dice and you don't even know how many sides are on the dice. Anything could happen.

RC: Yeah.

NP: So going in with a point B even if it's like the roughest least important consequential point B in mind helps give you just a little bit of the framing or like the wherewithal to inform your journey which then should mainly be based around accepting this kind of uncertainty. And then I think if you can do that, if you can go in, if you can go into your journey with your little bit of point B in mind, but understanding that your point B is kind of probably less important than like whatever you're about to experience, I think that's a a decent mindset when embarking on thing.

JB: Yeah.

RC: I think framing is the perfect word because it is like a a right like it's not it's not a blurry line or like a hazy band from A to B. It really just is like a a shape you have in mind. And to me, Aaronry is best described honestly through this not theory s***, Max. Like the errant like a human's journey around the world is like this loose is this errant thread around a loose center. You feel me? Like you think of a poached egg like how the egg whites spin or like how a fish moves around the bowl. Like that's really what we do. So I feel like if you take the shape of a loose balled up piece of thread like that's us and that is like the A to B. But there's definitely a shape to that journey for sure. It's not unframed completely because then you just then you then yeah then you're nothing like shape.

NP: Totally. Um well, I think it's a decent place to end the call. Maybe we've arrived at a point B. Maybe not. If there are any final things people want to say, get on record, please do. But if not, I'll end the convo and we can just chop it up for a second before we head our separate ways.

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This section is dedicated to everyone who showed love and supported the mag for these first 3 issues. I was really nervous putting out the first post about this almost 4 weeks ago, and to now be on the other side of 3 issues, 20+ contributors, and people wearing the t shirts (thx danny) around the world??? It really feels surreal tbh. I feel so lucky to have taken a chance on it, and to have been caught by all of yall who made this possible.

I need to take a bit of a break before this continues, and tbh not too sure about what will come next, if anything at all.

I hope these issues served as a reminder that you can do anything you want if you believe in yourself and trust in those around you.

Until next time <3

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This issue would not have been possible without the amazing + generous support from the following people:

★ stefaluna, cover image source

★ fallwinter2002girl, First Words & "Eye to Camera"

★ alyssa grace, "Eye to Camera"

★ roman casper, "Tips for the Road"

★ joseph b, "Tips for the Road"

★ danny diamonds, "How to Start a Magazine"

★ angie rockey, co-editor